Celebrating different family types with Lotte Jeffs

[00:00:00] Welcome to theDivorce Podcast, where we explore all aspects of ending relationships,separation and parenting apart. If your marriage or partnership has ended, oryou have friends and family who are separating, this podcast is for you. I'mKate Daly, a Relationship Counselor, Divorce Specialist and Co Founder ofAmicable, the online legal service for separating couples.In each episode, we look at relationships and separation fromdifferent angles, including the emotional, legal, and social. I'm joined byexperts and special guests who share their own unique stories, experience, andtips with the goal of helping people end relationships in a kinder, morewelcoming way. and better way.In this episode, I was joined by Lottie Jeffs and Anthony Siderto discuss queer parenting and different family structures. Lottie is an awardwinning magazine writer, an author, and podcaster. They're a [00:01:00] contributing editor of Grazia and havehosted the award winning podcast, Some Families, as well as Grazia's LifeAdvice, and most recently, From Gay to Z.Lottie writes for broadsheet newspapers and internationalmagazines and was previously the deputy editor of Elle. Lottie lives in Londonwith her wife, daughter and two cats. I was also joined by Anthony and Anthonyis a divorce specialist at Amicable and has worked in the area of divorce,mediation and family dispute resolution for over 10 years.His areas of interest include the voice of the child anddiverse and inclusive families. We kicked off today's episode by discussingLottie's story, as well as their current family dynamics. We move on to thetopic of LGBTQ plus families and the unique challenges they face when divorcingand separating.We delve into the dynamics that children create in blendedfamilies and the different communities and support structures available in theface of separation or divorce. Throughout the episode, we [00:02:00] focus on embracing and celebrating thedifferent types of families that are part of our society today. If you lovethis episode, then please subscribe and rate us on your preferred listeningplatform.Welcome Anthony and welcome Lottie. So today we're focusing oncelebrating different family types. including queer and blended families. NowLottie, your parents divorced when you were an adult. So do you want to startby telling us a little bit more about this, and whether you think that that'shad an impact on your own family?It's a really interesting question, and I don't think it hasdone, and I wonder if that is because it happened, as he said, when I was anadult. And it's not something that's been kind of lodged in my early brain ormy subconscious in a way that I've had to kind of work through throughout mychildhood and adult life.I was kind of pretty much like cooked as a person when ithappened. And I think that that was very [00:03:00]helpful for me, not to say it didn't take a lot of therapy and talking andprocessing and work, but in terms of its impact on my own relationships and myown ideas about commitment, I don't feel like it's had any kind of detrimentalimpact on on that at all.It's felt very sort of other to me. You say, even as an adultchild, and I think this is sometimes something we forget, it's not just youngchildren that are impacted by divorces, but adult children, um, are reallyimpacted too. And it sounds like, you know, you say you've had some therapy anda lot of talking about it to try and get to a place where it doesn't have anegative impact.That's really positive message for people, isn't it? That itdoesn't have to be a negative train wreck experience. It can be somethingthat's. survivable and you still go on to thrive and doesn't impact your viewof relationships? Definitely. And I think the thing about it happening when youare older [00:04:00] is that you're in aposition to be able to be a friend to your parents in the way that you're notwhen you're a child.So I certainly built a much more kind of authentic friendshipwith both of my are off the back of their separation. which is something thatin a way I'm very grateful for. And Anthony, you're, you're a friend of thepodcast. You've been on, um, before and you've talked a little bit about yourown experiences of being the child of, of divorced parents and you're nowstarting your own journey into adoption.So what do you think at this sort of really interesting pointin your life, what do you think the influences of your childhood experiencesare now that you're facing a new chapter in your life as a parent? I think itgives you a lot of resilience and a lot of strength. I can remember that one ofthe first mediators that I worked with said that I had always been a mediatorthroughout my life [00:05:00] because of thathappening at quite a young age and because it wasn't the nicest divorce aswell.And so I would hope, yet to find out, but I would hope thatthat will sort of support me further down the track in the adoption process tohelp a child sort of navigate through some of that change as well. And. Thatsort of resilience and that adaptability that comes into, into play too. AndLottie, you've written a book and I understand when you were talking to meearlier that you did a lot of research and talked to a lot of people fromdifferent backgrounds with different families.Tell me a little bit about what you learn. for on thechallenges that parents in the LGBTQ plus space face when they're separatingand divorcing. Yes, so the book is called The Queer Parent, Everything You NeedTo Know From Gay To Z. And we actually do have a chapter in the book. It'salphabetized, the book.And chapter X is for ex partners, divorce, [00:06:00] separation, and step parents. And Isuppose the main thing I learned from speaking to queer parents who were in theprocess of separating, or had separated, was this extra sense of pressure tosucceed as a queer parenting unit because You feel under so much scrutiny andyou feel like you've only just sort of earned the right to be a parent, earnedthe right to be married, therefore, why would you just sort of throw it allaway and make it look like queer people can't navigate parenting challenges orrelationship challenges well enough?And so I really recognize that for queer parents there was areal extra layer of shame, I suppose, attached to divorcing and separating,because it's something that certainly becoming a parent, you would have workedso hard to become, [00:07:00] you know, it'snot just going to happen naturally for you. And so then to kind of have torecognize that this is a relationship that needs to separate is even more hard,I think, to reckon with than if you're in a straight relationship.And Anthony, tell us a little bit about shame and where shamecomes from because it's something we talk about quite a bit, isn't it? Thatstill, even today in 2024, we're still having to talk about divorce being ashameful thing or separation being a shameful thing. What's keeping it going, Iguess? I think it's the, um, societal expectations, really, and societal normsthat make a lot of these things harder than they need to be, and I thinkparticularly for queer parents and queer families, we are just the same as anyother family in the sense that we get into relationships the same way, ourrelationships end in similar ways, we have blended families just likeheterosexual couples have as well, So I think it's just [00:08:00] those societal norms and a lot of it is aboutvisibility and really normalizing these things as well.One of my favorite chapters from your book, Lottie, is Q forQueerification, and it was the story that you tell in there about the Sylvanianfamilies and mix and matching them to represent your families. And I thoughtthat's a really good example of how we're having to do a lot of that work tonormalize.in society who we are. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Say a bit moreabout that then, um, Anthony, because this idea of having to normalize, I mean,whether you're in a, um, a queer relationship or a heterosexual relationship,we still feel shame. So what is it about RT that is not allowing us to get pastthis idea of the breakdown of a relationship?being a shameful thing and can we learn any lessons if you'vehad to fight harder to have your relationship recognized is there [00:09:00] something that we can take from that toreally try and overcome that sense of shame and taboo more generally speakingnot just in the queer parenting world can we take a lesson and apply it moregenerally in a positive way is that I don't know what you think Well, I, Ithink that it does apply to, to every relationship.And I think it is that, that idea that's still really ingrainedabout, you know, what a marriage looks like and, and what a divorce looks likeas well. And it's just one of those things that it's becoming more and morecommon and particularly in the way that we're working in the space of divorceand separation, that it doesn't have to be, you know, a big battle, a bigfight.It can be something that is worked through and that they can benew partners and blended families. I think one of the lessons that.particularly queer families can maybe hopefully give to heterosexual couplesand heteronormative families is that we are already very used to having some ofthose conversations about difficult adult concepts with our children, [00:10:00] about, you know, where they come from,about what that journey has looked like, and about how family structures aredifferent.And that's something that is, you know, you know, always donefrom a young age because in, you know, many situations you sort of can't reallyavoid that. And so I think it's just about being able to have those adultconversations to children in a child appropriate way and building on those asthey grow up as well.Yeah, I actually couldn't agree more with that, Anthony. Ithink that is something we're really good at as queer families talking about.difficult things and normalizing things from a really young age. It just makesme think I have a family friend at the moment who they are separating but theyhaven't told their teenage children.She is having another relationship with another man and the manin the relationship is a lot older and is, they're just carrying on as normal.And it strikes me that there's a [00:11:00]real lack of understanding about how important it is to not lie to yourchildren, um, and to bring them on the journey with you and to lean into someof these difficult conversations and make them feel like they have a sense ofagency in these conversations.And I feel that, you know, thinking about like an equivalent ofTalking to my daughter about her donor, that's something that we have reallytried to normalize from even before she could talk, you know, just using thewords, talking about a donor, making it like a very normal, non dramatic thing.Something we talk about in the book is really trying to avoid any kind of likebombshell, big reveal moments.And what I feel observing this family that I'm telling youabout is that they're gearing themselves up for there being a big revealbombshell moment. And I just don't see how any good is going to come of that.My advice, as I've said, [00:12:00] I'm not anexpert, but I would have thought talking to them slowly about, you know, thingsare maybe changing, our feelings are changing, and gearing up to sort of littlebreadcrumbs of information is better than A.lying to them, concealing the truth, and b, just telling themall, if you do tell them, in one fell swoop. Yeah, and I think a lot of thetime that can come from a place of the best intentions, trying to protect thechildren and, and trying not to, you know, As you say, sort of drop a bombshellon them, but, but actually, the, the end result can be exactly that, whatthey've been trying to avoid, where it's a bit more of a slow and steadyapproach.I often say to parents that, that I work with, you know, youdon't have to have all the answers, you know, you can, you can plan as much aspossible on a piece of paper, but actually until you start implementing thatplan and living it out, you're not going to get it 100 percent done. Right. Andso it's not had that high [00:13:00]expectation on, on themselves as well.So yeah, I, I would completely agree with that approach. Wehave quite an old fashioned still sense of parenting, I guess, don't we, wherethis idea of protecting children and them not being able to cope with emotionalthings. We sort of perpetrate that, don't we? And I think when parents aregoing through that difficult scenario of getting separated or divorcing, youalmost.go back a stage, don't you? And you think, Oh, I can't doanything to hurt them because the actual act of separating is so hurtful initself. I've got to be overprotective and you're right. And if it's been partof the way you've brought your kids up, because you're having theseconversations come from and how you're going to pair and, and the differentfamily types that everybody sort of is involved in now, it's kind of.That's just the norm to continue it, isn't it? So although Ihear what you say, Lottie, in terms of there is this extra pressure, you'vealso got a slight superpower running alongside that, haven't you? If you, if asa family, whatever [00:14:00] the family setupyou are, if as a family you've always been confronting how you've come about asa family and the fact that you're a slightly different family than to say someother heteronormative families that were, you know, All that family stuff getsreinforced in day to day society, then yes, you have got a bit of an advantage,as well as, as you say, the additional layer of shame for feeling like you'veworked hard to get this right and now family up.But I think, I wonder if there's also a risk of there beingstereotypes and us playing into stereotypes, and I don't know what you think,Lottie, in terms of the stereotypes around separating parents when it's queerparenting. Do you think there are some stereotypes that people suffer from? Iguess it's harder, isn't it, when you don't have gender to be your kind ofstereotype if one partner, you know, the stereotype in a heterosexualrelationship might be that.The man cheats, [00:15:00]whereas if it's a two man partnership, what do you do with that stereotype? So,I don't think we do suffer from the same stereotyping. I think the main problemI would imagine that separating queer parents face is that it's happening atall because it's so not normal. Because it's so, relatively speaking, new forqueer people to be getting married, it's still even newer for them to beseparating.For them to be getting divorced, yeah. Yeah, for queer parentswho are divorcing, there's a, you know, with straight people, It's kind oflike, okay, you know, I know lots of people who have separated. It's not amassive surprise when it happens. Whereas I think with queer parents, there'sstill a real sense of surprise and not really being able to believe it.So I imagine that separating queer couples really have to facethat a lot. And Anthony, then do you think there's an [00:16:00]opportunity, because I guess a lot of, particularly some of the parentingconversations we have, they still tend to be very gendered, um, withinparenting, particularly when you're talking about which parents are going tospend the majority of the time looking after children.Although shared care is definitely way more prevalent andpopular as an option than it ever used to be. There's still quite a lot ofgendered parenting that goes on. So I guess maybe there's an opportunity thenin a queer divorce for not to have to play into that gendered parenting. Okay.There's a stay at home, primary caregiver, mom usually, and then there's a dadgoing out to work.So, That presents opportunities to come up with more creativeand to normalize different shared care patterns as well, doesn't it? So there'sa great opportunity by looking at the full diverse range of families to bringmore diversity across the board, it would seem. I don't know what your [00:17:00] thoughts are on that.Yeah, yeah, I would agree with that. And I would say, you know,that's something that doesn't just start at the point of. Divorce, you know, itstarts at the very beginning of the parenting journey for Lots of queerfamilies because of those norms and it's it's freeing in a sense because therearen't those same expectations the the division of of labor in terms ofparenting in terms of the household and in general and I think it's a lot morefreeing to be able to sort of play to your strengths in that sense.It also means that we're Already used to having thoseconversations at the point of a separation or at the point of a divorce becausethere haven't been those assumptions that some heteronormative families andcouples may have had and may have just sort of slipped into because that's thequote unquote norm.So yeah, I think there is an opportunity there and I think theother thing to be aware of is Particularly with single parents is around a lotof the terminology, you know, like, there's lots of mum and baby support groupsand Facebook groups and things like [00:18:00]that. And I don't think that's particularly helpful for anyone.And again, that doesn't just apply to queer couples and queerfamilies. I think that applies to everyone as well. Yeah, absolutely, Anthony.Lottie, were there any other learnings from your research for your book? In myresearch, most of the families, um, had navigated a way through to createblended, happy families, but we did also meet people for whom it had been astruggle.And even though it wasn't necessarily gender that was the thingthat was defining roles in, in a divorce, it was. still, you know, potentiallyother things like biology, which is an interesting one, you know, does thebirth mother have more of a right? than the non birth mother, for example. Andit brings up all sorts of moral questions in that respect that, [00:19:00] you know, there's not really a precedentfor hugely at the moment.So I think it still can be very complicated for queer people,even more so, especially with adoptive parents. Sometimes maybe there'ssomething quite helpful about both being biologically Related to a child,because if you don't have that, there's sort of things that can become a littlebit more hard to define in terms of roles, so I think it's nice to think thatqueer parents, you know, are more naturally likely to form happy, blended,radically reimagined kinds of families, but also I think that there can be someissues that are specific to queer parents.to queer people in divorce as well, such as, you know, aroundsurrogacy, around adoption, and around biological relationships. I think thatsort of links to the need for there to be a lot more sort of open dialogue andflexibility, and why sort of [00:20:00]resources around queer families and their experiences aren't just for queerfamilies, but it's also for, you know, It's also for family.It's also for friends to be able to have those conversations.Like, you know, I know that you and I have had a few conversations now that I'msort of partway through the adoption process around, well, what's it going tolook like? You know, I don't know when it's going to happen. I don't know whatthat's going to look like.I don't know what my needs are going to be. And it's sort ofthe same in the situations of divorce and separation and not being able to havefixed hard and fast expectations around. what that's going to look like. It'sunique to every family. Let's talk a little bit about speaking to children.Lotta, you touched on it earlier, and you made the point that very often kidsin queer families have grown up talking about some quite tricky subjects from avery early stage.And the point that, you know, that means you don't storesomething up and then drop it as a bombshell, which I agree with. If you'reused to having those conversations, it's much better that you drip feed some ofthis [00:21:00] information in. How do we thenencourage parents to talk to their children more openly about their separationor divorce?Well, my instinct would be that, as you were saying earlier,waiting until everything is sorted and then delivering a kind of fait accomplito children. isn't going to make it any better. In fact, I would imagine itkind of makes it worse to just be presented with all this information that notonly is this happening, but we've got a new house and moving in, there's a newpartner, and this will be your bedroom.I mean, depending on the age, of course, but I'm talking, Iguess, about slightly older children. I think that's just a sort of disastrousway of presenting the information to them. Personally, I would imagine that. AsI said before, bringing them on the journey a little bit is going to make themfind it a lot easier to digest small pieces of information.[00:22:00] Rather than havingeverything completely sorted out. And also, is everything ever completelysorted out in a divorce? I imagine if, if what you're waiting for before youtell your children is some kind of clarity, that you might be waiting for yearsand years and years. You know, everything takes a long time.Moving, buying a house, moving out, all of these things. Like,if you're waiting for these things outside of your own control to be sorted,Before you tell your children, I just think that that's a really, really badidea. And I think that as soon as you're sure that this is something thatyou're going to do, and that you're sure you're separating, I think you need togive your children the respect they deserve.And tell them that there's going to be some changes and thatyour relationship has changed, because we all know children pick up on stuff,they will know the mood has changed, the environment has changed, the way yourparents are talking to each other has [00:23:00]changed, and that kind of sense of anxiety about there being somethingdifferent or something wrong that you can't quite name, you can't quiteunderstand, that is the kind of thing that's going to cause a child to.You know, stress and anxiety and confusion, much more so thanknowing that something's happened, but it's okay, and your parents are dealingwith it, and, you know, I just think sometimes parents can hide behind the ideaof wanting to protect the children from something, whereas actually they'retrying to protect themselves because they haven't quite seen dealt with theirown shame, you know, about a relationship breaking down or, or about having hadan extramarital affair or something.And I think, honestly, I think it can be a little bit selfish.And I think that you can think that you're doing the right thing for the child,but actually you're just, um, doing the right thing for you. I completely agreewith that, and I think it extends as well to what the parenting relationship [00:24:00] looks like moving forward from that pointas well, and making sure that it is what is going to work best for your family,and particularly for your child, you know, often people come up with plans becausethey are plans that they think It's what they should be doing.Like, for example, still trying to get together every Sunday tohave a meal together as a family. Well, if you can do that, and that's going tobe comfortable, then absolutely. But if you're going to be sitting there reallytense, really awkward, there's going to be a lot of friction. Why are you doingit? Um, and so I think it's about sort of being honest with yourself as welland the situation that you're in and how raw things are feeling.And that might be something that changes over time and ineither direction. Yeah, small and frequent conversations rather than one bigconversation because it's certainly not something that is a one and done sortof thing. But is there an extra pressure then as a queer parent to do thingslike You know, be extra super friendly so that you're kind [00:25:00] of not sort of, as you were sayingearlier, Lottie, this idea that we've, we've fought quite hard to get to thispoint, so we can't then be seen to be just throwing it all away.But is that then a massive pressure? Because we always havethis debate, this co parenting and sometimes co parenting issue. Absolutely.just isn't possible and you have to parallel parent. Parallel parent is whereeffectively you've got two separate dictatorships. You know, you do my rules inmy house, in your other parent's house, you have their rules and they could bevery different.And then you've got co parenting, which is where we all agreeon a set of rules and we try and effectively have two homes and it's one, it'sone thing. So just, I wonder if there's that extra pressure. Because of thatpoint you made earlier, to be, you know, real happy, clappy co parents, whenactually, well, you might be having the bitterest of all divorces.And just because you're a queer parent doesn't mean you'regoing to necessarily be in the co parenting camp. So, is that a real thing? Isthere, do you think there is an extra pressure? I think [00:26:00] there definitely is, you know, a real sense ofperfectionism. We're still at the vanguard really of queer parenting and we'restill at this need to kind of prove that we deserve it, prove that we've earnedit, prove that we're good enough.But of course we are and it's a shame that we feel so Burdenedby this sense of having to be perfect parents because it is probably reallyhaving a negative impact and I think certainly in a divorce and separation likeit's going to be a real added pressure and I know some people like some queerparenting influencers actually who I follow on social media.have recently announced their separation. And I was imagining,I don't know them well, but I've followed their kind of content. And I wasimagining for them, my God, that's even more pressure because you've kind ofset yourself up as this, you know, figureheads, the face of queer parenting.And you've got like a public profile and you've, you know, been showing on yoursocial media, look how great we're [00:27:00]parenting can be and look at our happy family.Then to have to announce that. You know, it isn't easy and thatyou are separating. You must just feel a real added sense of havingdisappointed people, I think, which must be really hard. Yeah, and then, likeyou say, the pressure to behave absolutely perfectly through it, and nobodycan. I mean, it's just impossible.You know, we work in this every day. You, you can have all thebest intentions and that's brilliant, but sometimes it gets to you. You'regoing to be ratty and horrible. You're going to say the wrong thing to yourkids. You're going to shout at your partner. You're going to not put your bestfoot forward, and it's okay.And I just worry that this added pressure you've spoken aboutso eloquently just drives some of those negative feelings underground. Andactually, what we really need to do is create a space for people just to bethemselves and be real, rather than having to feel they've got to be the faceof, you know, like you say, you know, model parenting, just because, you know,you've come at it from a different perspective.So [00:28:00] that's my worryfor it. Like you say, that there's a lot of pressure on people at the momentbecause it's such a hard one, right. And because it's still at it's in itsearlier days of being accepted. Yeah. And what do you think then in terms ofblended families? Are, are there any real kind of additional challenges ifyou're a queer blended family than if you're a heteronormative blended family?Or is it all just blended family stuff and it's hard whicheverwhich way you do it because there are so many kids and so many schedules to tryand make a line? Well, I do think that if, um, and this was my experience ofspeaking to some people for the books, if the queer relationship has come aboutafter a heterosexual relationship and perhaps the children were born intoheterosexual parents and then, so someone I spoke to in the book came out as alesbian, You know, later in life when their child was 10 or 11, I think thatcan be an extra pressure, uh, or challenge in a blended family because [00:29:00] it's maybe a surprise to the left part.Yeah. The, the, maybe the, the whole family is also having tokind of reckon with the mother's sexuality. And so that's an additional layer.I think that. It happens within blended families, for sure. So there can beadded complexity depending on the individual circumstance. What, what's yourthoughts, Anthony, from a blended family perspective?Because you're part of a blended family, aren't you anyway?Albeit you're an adult now. Yeah, yeah. I think children generally are quiteresilient, but it's exactly that. It's, you know, no, Two blended families arethe same. And particularly with queer families, that's not necessarily as aresult of a separation or divorce.There can be, for example, a gay couple and a lesbian couplewho have always co parented children. And, you know, there may be separationbetween that. So you may end up with sort of four blended families and, youknow, end up with sort of eight, Parenting figures. So I think there's alwaysgoing to be, uh, [00:30:00] complexities, andit's about just working through that.But, but again, I think the advantage sometimes that we have isbecause We have always had to talk to our children about where they've comefrom and the different family structures and, and how that works. It's not acompletely new and fresh conversation and concept, um, the idea of a differentfamily structure.It's just a different one to what they're already used to. So Iguess it's, there could be extra layers of complexity, as you say, but there'salso some advantages from, because we've said before, haven't we, that there'sbeen a dialogue from a much earlier age, potentially. Communication might bebetter.People might be used to talking about things in a more open andinclusive way, I guess. It strikes me then that there are, you've got expertsall meriting in blended family queer parenting in the parents themselves, andto some extent in the kids themselves, then you've got [00:31:00]the people who are meant to help you sort all this stuff out.So the mediators, the divorce, we, I should say we, not they,we have got a bit of catching up to do then in terms of being especially openand aware of the different issues. What do you think, Lottie, that theprofession can do to be more inclusive, to be more aware and to be more able tosupport and help queer parents when they're going through divorce andseparation?I think one simple thing is language. I think Anthony alludedto this earlier, just being really aware of the language that you're using onall of your communications, on your website and emails, you know, notdefaulting to mum and dad, using imagery of different kinds of families in allof your marketing materials and websites and things.I think honestly that makes such a difference and it is quite asimple thing to do. I don't think It needs to be a big kind of event, you [00:32:00] know, making a service appealing to, toqueer parents or queer people. It's just, can be quite simple. So I think justlooking at the existing language you do have and making sure that all thepeople that work with you from receptionists to mediators to lawyers, you know,that everyone's on the same page with that language.And so that when queer people are coming. to you for a service.They're not feeling like they're having to come out over and over again todifferent people that they meet, might meet. So I think that would be a greatstarting point. And Anthony, this is your bag. What are your thoughts? Yeah.Yeah. When, when I'm speaking with people for the first time, I always makesure to never assume.So I will always refer to Their ex partner rather than an exhusband or an ex wife. You know, I'm not going to be making that assumption inthe same way as I would always refer to people as parents rather than mum ordad because [00:33:00] I don't know what, whatterminology works well for them, um, and what they use.Whereas I think, you know, a parent as a general term doesn'ttake away from anyone, but it can help. To ensure that people don't feel leftout or, or like Lottie said, that you're not having to come out to people atvarious steps along the way, particularly through a process like this, where itmay be that you're speaking to, you know, quite a few different services orsupport agencies for various things and you're not wanting to have thatconversation every single time.We're running out of time. So I just want to ask a finalquestion of you both. If there are queer parents listening and they want somekind of tips or help and advice, Anthony, what would you say at this stage? Tobe honest, I would say Lottie's book, The Queer Parent is a fantastic resource,really, really useful.But also just to seek that support and advice wherever you canand to try and have those conversations and have some conversations with. yourfriends and family about what, what [00:34:00]you're experiencing as well, rather than trying to manage everything yourself.And obviously that's something that we can assist with at Amicable too.And then Lottie, so kind of similar question to you, but if youhad to summarize from your book one of the sort of key pieces of advice youwould give to a queer parent going through a divorce or separation, what wouldyou say? Well, I would say that within our book, The Queer Parent, we've gotsome really specific advice for people who have separated after surrogacy atdifferent stages of surrogacy.We've got advice for people who are separating as fostercarers, which is a really interesting one. And also interestingly, uh, we'vespoken to a couple who have separated very amicably after one of the coparents. transitioned to become a trans woman or to be the trans woman that shealways was. And so that is some very specific advice and case studies aboutthat situation.So we also cover [00:35:00]step parenting, how to be a good step parent and also, yeah, relationshipswhere the children have been the product of a past heterosexual relationshipand then within a new queer relationship. the new partner is taking on a coparenting role. So every iteration of a blended family and separation I thinkis hopefully addressed in the book The Queer Parent.So yeah, check it out. Thank you. And I guess you agree thatit's better to try and communicate and to negotiate yourselves rather thandefault to having to go through lawyers to do this because the law at thispoint point is not especially helpful or clear on a lot of these cases. And soit's always better to try and keep the lines of communication open and to dothings in a more amicable way.So just to end then, Lottie, where can we, you've talked aboutthe book, do you want to give us another quick flash of the book and tell usthe name of where you can find it? Yeah, sure. So it's just, uh, it's going tobe out in paperback from May and you can get it on Amazon or, uh, all goodbookshops. [00:36:00] It's called The QueerParent, Everything You Need to Know from Gay to Z.And it's by myself and my lovely co writer, Stu Oakley, who isan adoptive dad to three beautiful children. So please, yeah, find it whereveryou like to put it. Buy your books from. Thank you. And Anthony, if people arelistening and they want to speak to Amicable about drawing up a separationagreement or divorcing and separating, anything like that, we offer free 50minute phone calls, don't we?Where can people find the Amicable help? Find out more about uson our website, amicable. co. uk and also on social media as well. And you canhear about new podcast episodes by subscribing for updates and visitingthedivorcepodcast. com. Or on your favorite listening platform. Don't forgetfor separation and co parenting support you can visit amicable.co.uk where you can explore our free resources. Thankseverybody for [00:37:00] listening.‍