Dads, divorce and learning to ask for help

Mark Guthrie 0:00 That's my number one tip is that things will be okay. There's light at the end of the tunnel, and things will be okay, and reach out for help if you need to. And obviously, that's you know emotional support and legal help. Kate Daly 0:19 Welcome to The Divorce Podcast, where we explore relationship separation and parenting apart. If your relationship has ended or someone close to you is going through it, this podcast is for you. I'm Kate Daly, the relationship counselor, divorce expert, and co-founder of amicable, the legal service helping couples navigate relationship change. Each episode looks at separation from a different angle, emotional, legal, or social. And with experts and special guests who share their own stories and tips to help people separate in a kinder, better way. Why do so many men struggle to talk about their mental health during divorce? In this episode, I'm joined by Mark Guthrie, team lead for our assistive divorce service here at amicable. Now he's been through a separation himself, and now he helps others navigate theirs. Today Mark shares his own story, how hard he found it to open up to friends as a man, and what led him to do this work. We also talk about what a McKenzie friend is and how abuse can show up during a divorce, and why it's so often hard for men to speak out. Now, this episode touches on content that some listeners might find distressing, including abuse and poor mental health. So, to help, we've included some links to organisations that can help in the show notes. And please do listen with care. Welcome, Mark. Mark Guthrie 1:56 How are you today? Kate Daly 1:58 I'm good, thank you. Mark, it's lovely to have you with us, an amicable divorce specialist who now leads our assisted team with a superb experience, both personally and professionally. That makes you a rather unique combination. And that's what I hope we get to the bottom of today. Why don't you start then, if you would, by just telling us a little bit about your personal story. So your own separation experience and your professional journey to amicable. Mark Guthrie 2:27 Yeah, sure. So I haven't always been in law or the legal profession. Um, I've done a lot of um operations management, line leads, contract management, that sort of thing. I decided to have a bit of a career change and take myself to university because I'd never had an education before. I basically come out of school, went straight into manufacturing. Whilst I was getting my first degree, divorce happened. So it was my choice to separate. And yeah, it was uh it was a difficult time. Kate Daly 3:07 How old were you, Mark? Just roughly? I was about 36, I want to say. Mid-30s, then, when this happened. And did you have any children at this stage? Mark Guthrie 3:18 Yeah, three, three kids. Kate Daly 3:20 Okay. So you got a really young family then at this point. The pressure's on. Mark Guthrie 3:24 Yeah, pressure's on. Also, because I was doing my degree, you know, I wasn't really um earning that much money uh at the time as well. So separation happened. And then being in a separated household was was very difficult, I think, for everyone, understandably. Kate Daly 3:43 So you mean you were living together in the house at the time, but you had agreed to separate? Mark Guthrie 3:48 Yeah, that's correct. Um, and you know, I was on the two-person sofa and you know, going to bed after the kids went to sleep and getting up before they were waking up. So trying not to minimize any disruption for for them at the time until I could uh move out, basically. Kate Daly 4:07 You're right, that is hard, and yet it is a situation that lots of people find themselves in, isn't it? When you are, like you say, trying to keep things as normal as possible for the kids. Presumably, you haven't had those conversations yet about finances, how it's all going to work. You're just kind of reeling from the emotional kind of shock of having to talk about this and to say that it's over and everything. What helped you get through that stage then when you're trying to live in the same house? Mark Guthrie 4:33 I don't really know, other than just having, I think, just having to get on with it and trying to find the next step. So, you know, I think in hindsight now, you know, I probably would have reached out to a lot more uh people and services to be better supported and learn how to cope more, but it was just, you know, it was a bit of a real struggle day to day, as I so forth for everyone, I think. Kate Daly 5:00 And were you the first person in your friendship group then to go the sort of separation divorce route? Did you know other people who were divorced at that point? Because I often think that's really hard. I was the first in my group, and I didn't know anybody else that was divorced, it was like really weird. You're sort of a like a real kind of standout person, aren't you? It was just odd. Mark Guthrie 5:20 Yeah, exactly. And I don't even think any of my friends' folks were divorced. Um, you know, my parents were still happily married, so yeah, it was completely alien. One thing I found as well, which was a struggle, was because I wasn't earning a lot and I was trying to get my first degree education. Accessing, you know, legal help and support um was was difficult. And I had a tricky experience with that throughout the uh divorce as well. So yeah, but uh yeah, I eventually uh moved out. Um, and then you know, the kind of separation and finances discussion, uh, you know, what's gonna happen with the kids uh happened. So there's always a lot of difficulty when you do move out is to find when you have children is to find a place that's suitable for them to come and stay with you, if you know that's the arrangement that you have. So there's lots of added dimensions that there that make things uh very difficult. Kate Daly 6:20 That's a big one, isn't it? Because very often you get one person who's perhaps willing to move out for a short time. But that's not very sustainable because, like you say, ultimately you've got to be able to, if you're gonna share the care of the kids, it's not just a question of, oh, well, I'll go and back to my parents or I'll sleep on my friend's sofa, because you that's not a long-term place where your kids can come and visit you. And if you don't have that set up pretty quickly, you're losing the time with them, and then it becomes very easy for the other parents to say, oh, well, you know, they're used to living with me, and this is this is what we should keep as consistent, versus, well, actually, until six months ago, they lived with both of us, and that's really where we should be keeping the consistency. So, how did you know how to navigate all of that? And if you didn't know, what would you say to people now? Mark Guthrie 7:08 I didn't know how to navigate that, and I think you know, it's a very good point in my experience of working with my own previous customers and clients, you know, it's it's a huge problem housing for a clinical conseparation. A lot of the time it's the dads that move out, and I know um of lots of dads that you know could only afford like a you know house HMO house of multiple occupancies, so they've got a room somewhere, they can't have the kids over, they can't see the kids, and in some circumstances, you know, that perhaps could be used against them when you're talking about child arrangements, probably. So it's yeah, it's it's a difficult situation. What would I do now if I could speak to my old self? It'll be get a support network, is you know, the the number one thing. And as a male talk in some way self, uh, you know, another man, don't be afraid to reach out and help, because I think, you know, I certainly try to take on everything and internalize everything, you know, and it's just not a healthy way to go. I didn't think even occurred to me, you know, that how it would be affecting my mental health, or you know, I wouldn't speak to my friends too much about it, or you know, my parents. I wanted to minimalize things about talking to them because I didn't want what them to worry. Kate Daly 8:34 Just unpack that then. Yeah, I get you don't want your your parents to worry. That's kind of like understandable, isn't it? But tell me about the friends thing because I think this is a real gender difference, isn't it? Because as a female, I mean, I even think now, I just don't think I'd have survived without my friends. I lent on them so hard. And as a woman, that came very naturally. That's how we roll. It didn't feel counter-cultural, it didn't feel counterintuitive in any way. And I think that what a great privilege, lucky me, but it's not the same. And I get that it's not the same for men, but just unpack that a bit for us. Why was it so hard to start that conversation? Mark Guthrie 9:16 I think we're just not used to it, is the honest answer, you know. And it's it's hard to talk about what's happening, but it's also hard to kind of really delve into it. I think you know, women have a great skill of being able to expand on, you know, what's happening in a conversation, talk about different scenarios, and that I think blokes find that a bit harder to do, and uh I think it's harder to reach out, even though any I've got a really good friends network actually, and I've been friends, best friends with about eight people that I met on the first day of my uh secondary school experience. So it, you know, I've been friends with these people for a long, long time, but I found it incredibly difficult to reach out or talk about these things because, you know, A, they don't have any experience of it, because I think I was the first one out of my group to be going through that. So, you know, practical help wouldn't be there. But you know, asking for any sort of you know, emotional support, I think this was difficult for for guys. Kate Daly 10:22 And you think about the boys then in that scenario, what do you do differently as a parent then? So that if they face something like this, because you know, they they may or they may not marry, but they're likely to go through breakups and various other things. What do you think you do differently as a man to role model that ability to open up to talk? If that's so important, and we know that most of us, even if we don't divorce, we will potentially have a breakup and need that support at some point. What do you do differently now then? What's your little golden nugget or your secret? Mark Guthrie 11:00 I try and think, make things a little bit different for my sons as well, for all of my kids. But you know, if we talk about boys, then the fact that I will talk to them more about stuff and I encourage them to ask questions or speak their feelings, I think, you know, not criticizing my parents at all because they're wonderful and lots of support. But you know, I don't think things were talked about, you know, and I don't think any of my friends had deep and meaningful conversations or questions and answers or anything, you know, because I don't think our dads were a cricket to talk about things like that, you know, emotions, support, mental health, well-being, that sort of stuff. It just didn't didn't really occur. Kate Daly 11:44 And yeah, it didn't. That was the 70s and 80s, though, wasn't it? Different times. Mark Guthrie 11:48 That was the 70s and 80s. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Kate Daly 11:51 I say 70s because that was my era. I'm sure you're probably 80s and 90s, aren't you? But anyway, we'll gloss over that. Mark Guthrie 11:57 I was born in the 70s. Kate Daly 11:59 Phew. Mark Guthrie 12:00 Yeah. Kate Daly 12:01 Okay. Mark Guthrie 12:01 Yeah, so you know, I think I think you do find it, you know, incredibly difficult. And you know, that is one thing that I would say to any guy who's out there who's worried or is struggling, then just reach out. And actually, when you get past that barrier of asking for help, men generally tend to be problem solvers, right? So, you know, when I have done in the past, they've gone, right, come on, let's have a look into this, let's do that. And they're very good at putting practical steps uh in place uh to solve the problem that you're having. So it's just getting getting used to it, getting over that hurdle. Kate Daly 12:36 That's super interesting, isn't it? Because the fear of reaching out is the barrier, not the response you get once you've reached out, like you say. But what can we do then to overcome some of those barriers, do you think? What do you want people to know? And how do you start that conversation? Mark Guthrie 12:55 I think it's got to be brave and you've got to know that it's okay to reach out for help. And, you know, the more you do it, the easier it gets, I think. And if you take those small steps, there is light at the end of the tunnel and there will be a solution. And all those things that you're worried about, you know, which it's you know, kind of be all the basics that everyone else worries about on a separation, which is, you know, how am I gonna live? How am I gonna afford something? Where am I gonna live? Am I gonna see my kids? What's gonna happen? You know, all of those things that you're petrified about, basically. And I think there's uh an added dimension for people as well, is when solicitors and that get involved, there's the fear of, well, what's what's coming my way? What's gonna be thrown at me? What do I you know need to navigate? Uh, because everyone hears the horror stories, right? You know, and unfortunately, a lot of them are true and things do happen, and automatically you're worried that, and that's just yourself. That's before you've had that first solicitor letter, or before you've had any of the conversations with your ex or the um mother or father of your child. Kate Daly 14:08 And how did you sort things out then? So you you lived together for a while, then eventually you moved out. What sort of place did you move out into? And then what were you involved in solicitor negotiations, or how did you resolve or get to a point where you know finances were sorted and being able to co-parent or solo parent or whatever you ended up doing happened? Mark Guthrie 14:33 So I moved out and then, yeah, the the solicitor's letters started really. And uh, thankfully, my dad helped me to be able to afford a solicitor for a while. Whilst I moved out, I had another child with um another woman, and that was difficult. So that was another added dimension that was happening kind of at the same time because it took several years to get to a financial agreement and get that, you know. Eventually it was a consent order that went through. But I had a tricky time um with the solicitor I used at the time, and it's part of the reason why I do what I do now. Kate Daly 15:14 We talk about being amicable a lot on this podcast, obviously. But you're right, you know, sometimes that with the best will in the world, you can't negotiate with your ex-partner for all sorts of reasons. And you're right, in that case, it seems like the only access to the court is through an expensive solicitor, and it does feel very daunting if you've got to go and do that on your own, that you became a McKenzie friend. So just explain to people who may not know what a McKenzie Friends is and what that would have meant for you and what you've been able to do for other people. Mark Guthrie 15:50 Sure, definitely. So I came out of Child Arrangements Court and I thought this isn't the right way to do it. I sat there in court, you know, quite upset actually in tears. Um, even though I got the court order that I applied for, but the whole process was harrowing. And, you know, you're on your own and you're going up against barristers, etc. Very, very difficult. And you look, you don't know the system, you don't know what's happening. So I then went to get my uh qualification, and when I came out, I decided to help the local members of my community as a professional Mackenzie friend. And as so a professional Mackenzie friend is someone who hopefully knows a little bit about the law and you know, the systems and the processes and procedures of the court, and they are there to help you inform you, guide you of you know the process that you're going through. So I have people with financial remedies and I have people with their child arrangements orders. Kate Daly 16:48 So it's like an informal guide. So it's not, you're not paying them as a solicitor, they're not giving you professional advice, but they're with you, they're coming to court with you, they're listening, they're able to take notes. I think you have to ask, do you still have to ask the judges permission for them to be in the court? Mark Guthrie 17:06 Yeah, so every time I was in court with with a client, you have to fill out a form asking permission. When you get in there, the first thing they do is they ask the other side if uh there's any objections that you know they're um the person using a professional uh Mackenzie friend. Some McKenzie friends do it as a business, as as I did. Um, so you know, there's not an issue there whether you're uh paying them or not. But there's restrictions. So a McKenzie friend obviously cannot advocate, they cannot speak on your behalf, sign on your behalf, um, conduct any sort of litigation, but they can be there to help and support you. Um so a lot of the work that I was doing was helping people with their paperwork and their bundles and making sure they understood the questions that they were being asked, um, or phrases that were being used. And I'd point out to them what uh questions that they might need to ask and remembering to get them to remember the points that they really needed to get across to the judge or or magistrates. Kate Daly 18:15 And some of the paperwork is so complicated, like the difference between a witness statement and other statements you make and which ones have to be signed, and which a submission and a witness statement, if you're doing it yourself, those two things can very easily become conflated. I'm sure anybody that's from a legal background listening, this is just like thinking, how? But as a punter, as a normal person, it is all very confusing, isn't it? So just knowing the different forms, what you should and shouldn't say. And I think sometimes what we might think are the really important points from a legal perspective aren't the important points. There are points of law that you can argue, and then there's what you might think in your day-to-day life is dead important, but actually isn't a point of law, therefore it kind of doesn't matter. And when you're hearing that, it can feel, well, of course it matters. This is my personal experience, this is what I'm going through. This is the bit you, judge, don't understand. But it it can waste a lot of time, can't it? And having that person who knows, it feels like a real access to justice point. Mark Guthrie 19:20 Yeah, absolutely. Because people do naturally and quite rightly want to say, you know, their feelings and their position and want to talk about the whole story and what happened then, and you know, that they may want to get into the kind of tit-for-tack kind of, you know, she said this and he said that, and you know, all this sort of stuff. But the court, a lot of that is irrelevant to the court. They don't want to know, they don't want to hear it, they don't have time, so they need to get to the, you know, to the facts of the matter. Kate Daly 19:50 So you had the experience of of getting divorced, not having access to a McKenzie friend, having to essentially take what you felt was a low ball offer uh because it was too expensive to fight it, not being shown the other options. You've done a law degree, so you've got some notion, then you on the back of this, you set up a business as a McKenzie friend to help other people to fill in the missing pieces that you didn't have, essentially. What did you learn from helping those people about our system and the just the justice system that people have to navigate? Mark Guthrie 20:27 The variation really, it can be really good. Um, and it's the right thing. And it's good that, you know, the focus, let's say for child arrangement disorders, for example, the focus is, you know, on the children, the child of the of the case, you know, and that's obviously number one priority, and that's brilliant. I learned that different judges get different outcomes, and you know, even having the magistrates there and not a judge per se is a different outcome, can be a different outcome altogether. Um, I find that, you know, very interesting. So one of the things that I didn't realize when I went to get my education was that magistrates don't need to be legally qualified. And I found that very interesting because on my course there was a couple of magistrates on there to try and get a legal qualification. So I don't know if that's changed now. Um, so I got my uh qualification in 2018. I thought that was very interesting. Yes, you know, it's you know, it's it's your peers or the peers of the community that, you know, that's obviously why they have a legal advisor there. Yeah, and then you know, different those different judges have different outcomes, which I find interesting. Kate Daly 21:45 And when you were helping as a Mackenzie friend, what kind of people were you helping? What were the stories that you were hearing over and over again? Mark Guthrie 21:57 Lots of uh stories of Of people being in a bit of a pickle, um, not knowing what they're doing or what to do. Most of them, I think 90% of uh the people I helped were dads or husbands. Kate Daly 22:15 Yeah. Deliberately, because you wanted, because you felt you had some kind of empathy with that group. You'd been through it yourself, so you were kind of you found it more straightforward and more rewarding to help that group. Mark Guthrie 22:27 Yes. And I think just probably because of the network that I had at the time locally, you know, you go to a dad's group or, you know, you speak to loads of other dads, and it kind of, you know, I just got referred, and then I got referred and then referred again. And you know, it's just dads referring to other dads, basically, you know, go and speak to Mark, he can help you, sort of sort of thing. So, yeah, contact with children was the main one. Kate Daly 22:57 And what were the dads saying to you? What were they up against? What was happening? And was it happening on a systemic level, do you think, rather than if this was just a bunch of, you know, accidental circumstances? Do you think there's something wrong with the way that this is all arranged? Mark Guthrie 23:14 Yeah, it get it got to a point where, you know, I was having an initial conversation with someone and they started talking. And I'll be like, I was like, okay, so they're saying this, you know, they're saying that. So lots of themes were, you know, you can't see your kids unless something happens with finances, or you agree to do this, or you agree to give me the house. So there's a lot of experiences that people have had with financial and emotional abuse, I would I would say. Kate Daly 23:47 So bargaining, using the kids as bargaining, essentially, to try and get a financial and a financial outcome. Mark Guthrie 23:55 Yeah, absolutely. And um, I know of you know, one person who um had to do certain performances to, you know, be able to see his kids. So, you know, there was abuse on that level for um somebody. So it's a quite harrowing stuff, really, you know, and the main thing is, you know, is they didn't have the finances. There's very common themes, you know, a lot of it's kind of controlling behaviour. Um, the other aspect is using um the systems against them. So calling the police multiple times, um, you know, where you know there's been no issues, no safeguarding issues or anything like that. But it's a tactic sometimes because, you know, when you get to into court and you have the Kafkas reports and the police reports done, yeah, you know, a judge came up. Kate Daly 24:54 It all comes up, yeah, yeah. Mark Guthrie 24:56 They had to call the police 12 times, and it's like, okay, each 12 times there was no further action because there are false allegations or something, but it's still there on official record, and it's so hard for anyone, I think, to uh defend against when you know they're on their own, they don't have legal support, and these turns and things are being thrown around in court. It's it's uh it's a bad case to be in for some people that don't have that support. Kate Daly 25:24 Yeah, I can imagine. I can imagine. And like what would the dad say at the end of all of this then? So, where did you think they landed in terms of their experience of family court or resolving these issues? And were they always helping by the nature of the fact that you were a McKenzie friend? Does a McKenzie friend only help in court, or were there other ways that you were able to help? Mark Guthrie 25:47 Um, yeah, being in court support is only part of it, you know, understanding you know what's happening in the process and getting the paperwork done. You know, if you're doing position statements, what goes in it? You know, they want to tell their life story, like we said before. You can't do that. We need to focus and hone in and you know, do essentially bullet points because, you know, when you're in uh proceedings, you might be directed by the judge to only have two sides of you know an A-core piece of paper to get this whole mass of information and and you know even defenses to arguments or accusations and that sort of thing into this one piece of paper. It's really difficult to do, uh, and it's definitely difficult to do if you don't have any experience at all. Yeah, so I think yeah, it's good, it's good for it was good for them to have someone in their court, someone on their side, and that's the feedback that I used to get. And I guess why just had lots of uh referrals because, you know, some of the comments I was receiving was, you're one of us, Mark, you're not one of them, you know. So I wasn't seen as a, you know, a suit or legal big law, you know, or anything. You know, just helping them, talking to them as if they're human beings, I'm telling them what everything means, and explaining to them when they get the solicitor letter that's demanding on them to do X, Y, Z, you know, helping them to understand that that's just a letter from a solicitor. A lot of people think that, you know, that's the law because they're a solicitor. Kate Daly 27:20 Yeah, absolutely. And that's why it makes you so scared, isn't it, when you get one of those letters because you're like thinking, oh my God. And it must be true if it's come from a solicitor and all of that kind of stuff. And yeah, that actually sometimes it's a tactic, it's a pure tactic. And that's what upsets me about it so much is the game playing in the tactical letters and things. When this is somebody's life and it's somebody's mental health at the end of the day, it just feels barbaric. It makes me angry and it makes me so sad because it's real people with real lives that are absolutely being torn apart. And the only thing that you want to do is to be able to parent your kids. And in the process of trying to do that, if someone takes you down mentally, then by the end of it, yeah, they're right. You're you're not in great fit state to do it, are you? Because you're so distraught by the process. And like you used the word harrowing before, you know, that as those court appearances are absolutely barbaric and harrowing. Mark Guthrie 28:24 It's a sad fact that many people give up and they walk away because they can't they can't handle it and they don't know what to do. And then, you know, then you get a situation where there's children that don't have, you know, a father or contact with their father because of these things that are going on. Kate Daly 28:44 Yeah, exactly. Well, tell me about the mental health aspect of it then. So you've navigated this and you've seen it personally, but you've also seen it professionally, and you don't have to name which experience is which, but what do you think the impact on mental health is when there is a dispute about being able to see your children? Mark Guthrie 29:06 Well, I think you know, you can get depression, you're worrying about something, so that affects other other relationships in your life or work in life, you know. So, you know, it's something we'll one that um employers can look out for with uh their employees. You know, it's good for them to know if they're going through divorce and separation, I think, because you know, it does affect you that much. I I wish I knew how to recognise mental health issues, and I wish I knew how to like at the time to reach out for to support and where to reach out for. If you don't mind me mentioning a charity, there's a charity uh out there which I always refer people to, and I need to get the uh link correct. It's uh mankind.org. So they are um a really good charity that help males for uh victims of domestic abuse politically. So they help with you know that sort of level. And because I think if people don't identify that it is abuse, you know, then they'll never go to that support as well. So, you know, being told that you can't see your kids or you know, you have to pay X, Y, and Z if you want to see your kids, that's emotional and financial abuse. And you know, there are charities out there specifically for men that you can contact, you know, anonymously and talk to people about what's happening, you know, in your life. So, you know, I think if I knew about that um when I was going through all of my proceedings, then I probably would have called them. And they've got stats as well. That's a real struggle for men to identify, you know, that these issues are there, and then if they have to say who they are, they just won't talk about it. So, you know, again, we're looking backgrounds and why people don't need to talk to their friends and and you know, support networks that they have about it. I think maybe there's a bit of embarrassment and a bit of shame about you know, the saying to people, I need help. Kate Daly 31:15 Yeah, I think you're right. And I think the that domestic abuse card is so gendered, isn't it? It's it's just so difficult as a man to stand there and say, I'm I'm in an abusive relationship is I think is is hard. It's hard enough as a woman. And then you've got the social stigma on top of however hard it is. Um, so I I can completely understand that that anonymity is absolutely crucial to getting people to call and and to feel comfortable enough to say. But like you say, I think the other big thing is recognising it a lot of what happens. People don't automatically label as abuse. And it's only when somebody puts those things together for you and says it to you sometimes that you actually sort of stop and think, Oh, yeah, it is. And because again, we I think we see abuse in quite physical and violence terms a lot of the time, don't we? Rather than in all the other things that you say, the behaviors that go on, uh, and are really harming and damaging. Mark Guthrie 32:20 Absolutely. And you know, I think depression uh as well, you know, you may not even realize that you're depressed until someone says to you, I think you're depressed, you need to go and get some help. You know, there's some you go speak to somebody, you know. Kate Daly 32:37 Well tell us about those symptoms then. What do you think people should be looking out for? Because you mentioned employers as well, so it's not necessarily just friends, but what should we be looking out for if we know somebody that we love is going through something like this? What are we on high alert for? Mark Guthrie 32:55 Well, I think maybe mood changes, um, you know, someone having trouble sleeping, or that you know, they're waking up a lot at night and then finding hard to get back to sleep. I think, you know, that was probably one of one of mine. I think that I now recognise back then, you know, I probably was depressed and extremely worried about, you know, what was happening. Kate Daly 33:16 And that would show up if to no one unless they're sleeping next to you, nobody would know that, would they? So what that shows up in terms of you being tired, you being irritable, you know, you literally not wanting to be out and about doing things, but just needing to catch up on sleep and recuperate every sort of spare minute you get. It's that kind of stuff, isn't it, that people might see as friends and family and colleagues. Mark Guthrie 33:40 Yeah, avoiding social situations um as well is is another one, I think. You know, if you know your mate starts coming down the pub with you and you know he's going through all of that, then reach out and say, hey mate, are you okay? You know, want to have a quiet home together, or you know, you reach out in that way. But there's yeah, there's lots of lots of little signs, eating habits, drinking as well. If people start drinking more than they usually would, or you know, you see them getting down once they've had a few drinks, these are you know, all the kind of signs to to look out for. Kate Daly 34:20 And you mentioned men's groups as well before when we were talking. Tell us about you know what's out there and what how do you get in touch with a man's group? If you're experiencing this, you know, maybe you're maybe you're not fresh at it, maybe you've been like going through this for five or six years. What do you want to say to someone to make them like take that step to reach out to find a group? And what will it give them? Mark Guthrie 34:45 So I think Facebook's a good one. You can search up men's groups in your local area. When I was going through uh Mind Bits and Bobs, and then I come out of uh university, there's a men's group locally starting up uh called Dab LaSol, which are going really strong. They're a great group, and they started off doing like play dates just for dads and kids, you know, and Nerf Wars and Lego and all of this sort of sort of stuff. And that's you know, Dan, the guy who started it, found uh that's been growing really nicely for him, and now you know there's several dotted around the local towns and kind of to where I live. So I think try and get involved in a DAS group, and you will naturally just through talking to people, find a support network because you can bet your life. Most people that are in that group, you know, it have or are going through similar situations or have done in the past. You know, maybe they've been through divorce and you know they come at the other end and they got a new partner, but they're still in, you know, dad's groups. There's there's plenty there. And you won't it doesn't take long to find, you know, similar people, I think. So just have a good look around, basically. Kate Daly 36:04 Well, I'm super conscious of time. And in just a minute, Mark, I'm going to ask you to share one thing that you want every separating man or dad to know. But just before we do that, if this episode is giving you a little bit of clarity or comfort or just a tip that's made something feel a little bit more manageable, then make sure to follow us, the divorce podcast, on your favourite podcast app. Each week we're here with expert, real advice, real support to help you through separation every step of the way. So go on then, Mark. Final tips for men, especially dads going through a divorce. What do you want them to know? Mark Guthrie 36:41 Uh I want them to know there's light at the end of the tunnel, and things will be okay, and reach out for help if if you need to. And obviously, that's uh, you know, emotional support and legal help. Um, I think that's my number one tip is that you know, things will be okay. Kate Daly 37:02 Fabulous. It feels easy to say and hard to do, I know, but we do end up with this kind of similar sentiment. A lot of podcast episodes. When you're in the weeds of it, it's really difficult. And I always think that just doing one thing at a time, don't try and imagine the end game the whole way through, because that is overwhelming. That's what syncs you. So you're right, it's just know that there is light at the end of the tunnel and just do the very next thing. That's it. So great tips there. Thank you, Mark. Well, look, it's been absolutely fabulous talking to you. Thank you very much for sharing both your personal and professional experience. And of course, you can find me on LinkedIn and Instagram and hear about new podcast episodes by subscribing for updates and visiting thedivorcepodcast.com or find us on your favourite listening platform. We'd love to know how we can help further. So please share your questions on divorce separation or co parenting with us. They might just be a topic of a future episode.