Jo Thurston 0:00
But I would say in terms of the summer holidays, we have people who feel uncomfortable because they can't afford to take the children away, maybe, and the other partner can. So it can bring on a little bit of parental guilt and a bit of pressure to try and do lovely things and fill the time up. Also trying to find childcare or clubs or activities, I think that's that's very difficult. And if you're on your own and you have the children all summer holiday, you know, that can be really difficult to negotiate with work, having enough time off or being able to find things for your children. You know, money is a big concern at the moment for virtually everyone.
Kate Daly 0:37
Welcome to the Divorce Podcast, where we explore relationships, divorce, separation, and parenting apart. This episode is part of our new mini-series where we answer your questions, discuss current news and events, and share practical bite-sized tips. I'm your host, Kate Daly, a relationship counsellor, divorce specialist and co-founder of Amicable, the online legal service for separating couples. This week, I'm delighted to be joined by Joe Thurston to discuss why summer holidays can be just so tricky for single parents and some simple tips for making them more manageable and more fun. Joe is a coordinator at Action for Children's Parent Talk Service, which offers free online advice for parents and carers of children aged naught to 19 or to 25 where a young person has special educational needs. Welcome, Joe. Hi, thanks for having me. Well, it's lovely to see you. Thank you for joining us. I know that most parents, whether they're single parents or not, probably face the summer holidays, that long summer holiday, with a mixed bag of emotions, be that intrepidation, fear, or, you know, a sense of fun and enjoyment, and it's an opportunity to do different things. But let's start then by just answering the question: why are the summer holidays just so tricky?
Jo Thurston 1:57
I think it's um a number of things, but primarily probably the length of time is difficult for most families, especially if you've got young children, so you still need to be at home with them or you need childcare over that period of time. We know schools finish quite early. There's normally, I think, between sort of six or seven weeks of holiday, that's a a lot of time to have to fill. Fantastic for the children, maybe a lot more pressure on the parents and on the costs. I mean, it's an expensive time if you're trying to do activities and fill the summer up with fun things. And again, if you're single parenting, a lot of that will fall onto one adult rather than necessarily, you know, the ease of being in a a larger family.
Kate Daly 2:39
If you are a single parent then, when do you start planning the summer holidays? I'm I'm going to assume that most people will expect they've got to plan it rather than just turn up at the end of July and hope for the best. But you know, that is an option. But but let's let's say that most people are going to put some element of planning into it. When do you need to start planning?
Jo Thurston 2:58
I think it's like part of your ongo. I mean, if you're co-parenting with the other parent, then I think that would be part of your ongoing sort of co-parenting arrangement of how you're going to, that would be something that could be worked on right from the start, really. Who's having the children when in the holidays mark out that time so you know when you're responsible for them and when the other parent is responsible. Um, I think if you're working and you're going to need to find childcare or activities for the children over the holidays, again, as soon as possible. I think it's one of those things that if you can, you should try and think ahead and plan ahead as much as possible so that there's there's things in place. I think that some of the clubs and things probably get quite booked up quite quickly. So having a plan is really helpful. I think, I mean, it doesn't work for everyone like that, and it's not impossible to get through the holidays without having pre-prepped and what have you. But it certainly does make life a little bit easier. And also with the costs, you can have a set of budget and start to research what you can be doing with them and holidays abroad or holidays in this country, whether that's practical. So there's a number of things that you can think about in the run-up, which will make the holiday feel a lot easier, I think.
Kate Daly 4:10
And I know, you know, when we talk to people, obviously we're talking to people at the point of relationship breakdown. So sometimes the holidays that we're prepping people for, it's the first time. And it's really odd, isn't it? Because you might have come up with an arrangement that works during term time, and then all of a sudden you get to the summer holidays, and that it kind of doesn't work anymore, does it? And you have to be having those conversations with your ex and thinking about not just who's going to have the children when, but also, like you say, the cost, because it's all very well if you've agreed that one of you're having more of the children than the other one. But then there's a huge cost implication if you're doing summer camps because you're both working, even if you've agreed on the time split, you need to go back and have that conversation about cost, don't you? Because it's not fair that one person bears more of the cost than the other. So it's, and I think it sometimes catches parents out, particularly if you're the parent that hasn't necessarily been involved in the day-to-day arrangements previously. I think it can be a real shock to the system when you realise just how much some of these camps and things cost.
Jo Thurston 5:18
Yeah. Yeah, it is, it's a huge cost, isn't it? Luckily, there are things that you can do locally in most areas that are low cost. But yeah, definitely having that communication between and not everyone is able to communicate in a positive way with their ex-partner or the other parent. And in that case, I think that's something that, you know, if you're having mediation prior to separation, you might want to start thinking about how you're going to allocate time in the holidays on your parenting plan and how you're going to address those things at the costs. So I mean, you could get that um all written down on your plan already. So if communication is difficult, then it would be good to have a plan right from the start of when you start to work out contact arrangements and what have you.
Kate Daly 5:57
Yeah, no, that's a really good tip because sometimes you're right, it's easier when you've got that third neutral person there in the room to have some of these conversations and to test out. Because people often think different things are fair and they have different expectations. And it's it's not that necessarily one person's trying to be difficult, but you you're just coming from it from your own perspective sometimes, and therefore having that third person able to talk you through what you can do and how you can do it just allows you to have a dialogue without it escalating. And I think that's really valuable. And of course, at Amicable, we offer separating with children services, and you can book one of those sessions, they're 90 minutes, they're 310 pounds. You get um access to a specialist coach as well. So you can go through your parenting plan and create that and make sure you've hit all those buttons as Joe was just saying. So, what kind of questions do you get on your helpline or in your live chat, sorry, Joe, about the summer holidays? What are some of the typical things parents want to know?
Jo Thurston 7:00
We definitely have some issues around sort of contact and communication with the other partners. That sort of simmers away throughout the year, really. But I would say, in terms of the summer holidays, we have people who aren't feel uncomfortable because they can't afford to take the children away, maybe, and the other partner can. So it can bring on a little bit of parental guilt and a bit of pressure to try and do lovely things and fill the time up. Also trying to find childcare or clubs or activities, I think that's very difficult. And if you're on your own and you have the children all summer holiday, it you know, that can be really difficult to negotiate with work, having enough time off, or being able to find things for your children. The you know, money is a big concern at the moment for virtually everyone. So being able to find free activities, we talk to parents a lot about um where they can get some support, where they can find some free activities in their area. And the other thing that seems to come up quite a lot, particularly probably more in line with single parenting, is when the children throw a curveball at you and maybe don't want to do the plans that you've arranged or what have you.
Kate Daly 8:08
That is just dynamite, isn't it? Because it's that's a real nightmare. Because sometimes the other parent thinks it's you that's stoking them up to say stuff and it can all get very messy. So how do we handle that then if that's something that raises its head?
Jo Thurston 8:21
I think that's another. I mean, it this is all really based on whether you can have really good communication with your ex or whatever that looks like, is it you don't necessarily have to be able to have face-to-face conversations, but just to have any communication stayed as child-focused, you know, what we'd advise to parents is keep the children at the centre of this. It's their holiday, it's really important to them. And it's important to us as parents that they're happy and that they feel that they can make some decisions themselves as well. So if they're starting to want to be with their friends instead or, you know, do something when you should be doing something with them, I think having a bit of adaptability and a bit of flexibility is really, really helpful. But like you say, if if sometimes that can feel to the other parent like you're in some way trying to stop them from seeing the child or spend time with them. But I think if you can involve children in the decision-making process, that can be really helpful and listen to their voice. And you know, even if you're lucky enough to all be able to communicate together, for both parents to ask the children what would you actually like to do this holiday or if you're with me, what have you got any plans you'd like to do this week? And just listening to them and accepting that sometimes they may want to do things that don't fall into your pre-planning. I think that's really uh yeah, I think that's really helpful. It just keeping the children in mind is is really important in all of these plans, really.
Kate Daly 9:42
Well, children's voices get lost so often, don't they, when people are divorcing and separating. So I think that's a really, really valuable point. And I think you can ask kids from surprisingly young age in an appropriate way, can't you, about what they want to do and how they're involved they want to be? And you can suggest things, and there's ways of asking children that help them process that sort of information too. So because I I as soon as when you were talking, I was thinking, I wonder if people are wondering at what age you can involve and ask the children and what's too young, and because that normally comes up as a question for us. So is there any guideline to it? Or is it about knowing your kids and and just involving them appropriately?
Jo Thurston 10:23
I think yeah, if you know your kids and and you is difficult, probably the younger they are, the harder it is to have that kind of conversation. And and to be fair, there's probably less demand from the children to want to do things outside the family when they're younger. It's as they get older that you generally tend to get that separation where your teenagers would rather be in their room than going for a walk or might want to be with a friend instead of coming to stay with you on your allocated night. I think if you do have whatever the discussions you do, you can do it with younger children in a kind of role-play kind of a way. So it's, you know, that you're just gauging their feelings about it without actually directly asking them. And looking at similar situations in books and stories and talking to them about, you know, what what m what did that make you feel? Are you happy with the way the holidays are going? And as they get older, obviously it's it's really important to then involve them in the planning discussions, I think, so that they feel that they've got some control in the situation as well. And just being appreciative that it can be quite difficult for children going backwards and forwards between different homes and different settings as well. So having that understanding of how those transitions might work, especially because it's a different routine to the school time routine. I think that's that's important to keep the children happy and the holiday a little bit calmer.
Kate Daly 11:36
And I think like you say, it's noticing if they're not happy, isn't it? And just then being able to gently inquire. Because it you are right, kids love routine, don't they? And they like to know what's happening when. So I used to do a bridge spreadsheet and I'd print it off for them, and it was all coloured in. And do you know what I mean? It would be like, Look, this is if it's yellow, you go into this camp. If it's red, you're doing this, you know. Do you know what I mean? It was all a bit, you know, make to amend kind of thing. A bit blue peter, actually, it was. I remember doing it one year when they were a bit old and they're just looked too hard to do that. And you're just like thinking, oh yes, this is the bit that I missed. I got all my spreadsheets and hadn't actually asked them. I just carried on assuming that they were little and portable and they'd do exactly what I had planned on the spreadsheet. So it's a very good lesson, isn't it, to just be able to gauge and check in how it's going and whether they need a bit more involvement in it. And and like you say, we have to appreciate there are lots of different co-parenting relationships out there. Some are very good at communicating, others are not, and it can be difficult. And I like that point about it's just trying to remember to be a bit adaptable, not to assign evil intent and motive if things don't go exactly as you'd imagined with your partner, but just to try and stay adaptable and to try and think about what the kids actually want in all of this. And I always think this all kind of it tends to even out. It feels very tense when they're very little about wanting to get the same amount of time and all the rest of it, but it does relationships ebb and flow, and there'll be points in your child's life where they'll want to spend more or less time with you, not because you're separated parents, just because that's how kids roll, whether they're in a family where mum and dad are together or not. And I think it's just trying to bear some of that in mind and take the heat out of it sometimes that's important. Absolutely. You mentioned, I'm just going to pick on one other thing. You mentioned about how difficult it can be with work. Just, I mean, people have the right to request family time, don't they? Can you say a little bit about that, just in case people don't know?
Jo Thurston 13:41
Yeah, I think that um we'd always suggest that if you were worried about that or the situation or your holiday and leave policy, that it's worth speaking to your employer as soon as possible and just gauging what you're able to do, what you're able to take, and how that will work. So we we generally encourage parents to speak to their employer if they're worried about the length of time of the holidays and how they're going to do that and work out a plan with them if at all possible. It's just, I was just going to throw another point in from what you were saying as well. So we talked a lot about like booking the clubs and doing lots of activities and what have you. I think it's really important to also bear in mind that children quite often start the holiday really tired from the end of school and the end of the school year. And sometimes we overplan and we actually we can plan so much that they're exhausted and they stop enjoying it at the beginning. So I think you can be a bit kinder to yourself if you've got the time with them to not necessarily need to plan every day and every activity, because actually it's um sometimes it's the nicest days are the ones where you all sit in the garden on a blanket and have a picnic or you know, chill out in the house, watch some films. And those can make the happy memories for the kids, and it's not too much pressure. So there are things you can still do, you know, at home and make it special and make it memorable. So I I guess there's a balance between over planning and and that can be difficult because as a parent, we just want them to enjoy the holidays, don't we? And we want to enjoy our time with them.
Kate Daly 15:06
So yeah, and I bought just building on that point as well, I think there's a lot to be said for spontaneity, she said, knowing that she's the world's biggest planner. I mean, look if anyone's listening to this that knows me, they'd be laughing their heads off now. I said that. But there is, you know, you can just get up without a plan and just get on a train and just see where it takes you. And there are small things like that. But yes, there is a cost implication. But if you pack a picnic and you just get off a stop and you explore a new area or you do something, you're building quite a lot of skills in your kids to do that tolerance of risk, a tolerance of uncertainty, uh and it's okay not to plan. You know, you can do those sorts of things, can't you, when you've got the time, and it's it's lovely then not to have to feel that, as you said, everything is planned and scheduled within an inch of his life, which is how kids' lives are run these days. So you've got to, and I'm part of that, I'm not saying I'm any different, but I I fantasize that it might be nice to be a bit more spontaneous.
Jo Thurston 16:04
Sometimes those are the best days as well when you when you just do something like that. So, yeah, that's a good uh good tip, I think, for parents.
Kate Daly 16:12
And I think the other thing is boredom. I think boredom is a really underrated thing, and we never let our kids be bored. My kids have no concept of being bored anymore. But when I was a kid, listen how old we sound, but when I was a kid, we used to be bored all the time. It was just part and parcel of life, wasn't it? Coping with the boredom. So I I don't if my kids ever said they're bored now, I'd literally probably do a little rain dance or something. I'd be so excited at the the prospect that they'd felt this new feeling. But yeah, I suppose with phones and everything, it's a little bit more, a little less unlikely. Any final tips for parents who are confronted by the summer holidays looming?
Jo Thurston 16:52
I think talking to your support network, know who you can reach out to. It can be really difficult when you're parenting alone and you can feel quite isolated, and then when you've got the children as well, that can be quite impactful to your well-being and what have you. I mean it's it can be lots and lots of fun, but the pressure is all falling on you. So if you've got some supportive friends and family, that's brilliant. You know, use them. Most people will want to help you if you ask them and explain the situation. It's not always the easiest thing to ask for help, but it's it's really important to reach out to the people who would want to help you. And then, you know, if you're feeling like it's something more than you could cope with or you haven't got somebody that you can reach out to or talk to, then come through to a service like parent talk because it's really good sometimes to just be able to express what your worries are, what your concerns are, and have someone sort of listen and just help you work out what to do next and how you can manage that situation. It gives you that time to just pause and think and evaluate and then make a plan or a decision. And I think try and take the pressure off yourself as much as possible, because generally kids will have fun with the smallest of things. And it's great to, like if if they are bored, it's great to start encouraging to use their imaginations to create their own games and scenarios and and what have you. And it's a good thing for children to be able to do that. So try and take the pressure off yourself and try and have a good plan in place and make sure you have a little bit. I say make sure as if it's easy, especially as a single parent, but trying to have a little bit of time for yourself because you need some downtime too.
Kate Daly 18:30
Good, good tips. I always think the best way of getting downtime as a single parent is to find your tribe. Because if there's another single parent out there that you can make friends with with kids of a similar age, then that is like gold dust because they just get it. You don't have to explain. They know all the cost things, they know all the hacks for doing stuff cheap, and they'll have your kids and you can do the little swaps so you can get that little bit of downtime. So find your tribe, I always say, definitely. But the action line, the live chat is absolutely brilliant service. So I highly encourage anyone listening who is contemplating the summer holidays as a new single parent or even in a one who's tried and tested, then please reach out to them because it is a fantastic service. And as you say, just being able to offload to somebody is just such a fantastic thing to do. So thank you ever so much. I've really enjoyed chatting to you today, Jo. Where can people find out more about you and the service that you offer?
Jo Thurston 19:25
So if they look online, they need to type in parentalk at ActionForchhildren or parentalk.org.uk and they will bring up the website. The website is fantastic. There's so many good tips, hints, content pieces on there that that do cover a lot of, they don't cover everything, but that's what the one-to-one chat is for. So then if you if you do feel like you just want that voice and someone to guide you and help you and help you work out what you need to do next or what you want to do. If you log on to their website and then click onto the one-to-one chat, you should be able to talk to someone.
Kate Daly 19:55
Brilliant. That's great. And of course, you can hear about new podcast episodes. You can find out more about the upcoming podcast by visiting thedivorsepodcast.com. And if you're looking for specific support around co parenting, then visit our amicable website at amicable.co.uk where you can explore our free resources and you can book a free advice consultation as well. Thank you so much, Joe, for joining me today, and thank you, everybody, for listening.
Jo Thurston 20:24
Thank you.
